Re:shredding scales

Realize that the best musicians don't play any more notes that are "right", they just make the "wrong" ones fit better.

That's a long way off!!

But now I have another question:
WHO has enough TIME to count all the MESSAGES on a THREAD?

I agree with this but it can take years.
As for me I had to think theory when I played.
Especially when improvosing both with chords and single notes.
Now I know what position to use to play a particular mode and what chord to use to get to the next chord the fastest.
I don't think much theory but I am always thinking percussion and rhythm.
And Often I have to count to know exactly where I am and where I am going.

I doubt it.
I have seen threads go well over 500.

Not all that bad, Jon, according to my dictionary. It says here that
"spelt" is perfectly acceptable as the past tense (and the past participle) of "spell"

I've been wrong most of my life.
Nothing to worry about.

Not to open another can of worms on myself, but I screwed up here.
Anybody notice? It only dawned on me about an hour ago. And I made this mistake last week.

I hope you're reading me now, Ted! This is for you!!

I got "Melissa" mixed up with "Jessica".

"Melissa" is Dickie. Not Dickie and Duane. It happened after Duane crashed.

And that was a very sad day, not only for me but for everyone who ever heard him play. And {even though they don't know it} for everyone who didn't get a chance to hear him.

But if you take what I wrote and read "Jessica" wherever it says
"Melissa", then it's quite correct, at least as far as I can tell.

Don't worry about it. Open whatever you like.

Your writing is still getting better and better and better and better ... Congratulations and keep up the good (and VERY HARD) work.

I have to say one more thing about this whole shredding thing and then I will shut up (probably for a long time) ...

I've been thinking a lot about how everybody is different, especially about things like how the brain can compensate for a weakness in one area by getting stronger in another. You may be familiar with this phenomenon with respect to things like "blind people can hear better".

And I've been thinking that it's entirely possible that because of (or along with) the trouble you have READing, maybe you HEAR better than many or even most other people. I've been thinking that there are some players, some solos, some albums, some songs, that don't make any sense to me because the guys play faster than I can listen. But maybe YOU can listen faster than they can play. You certainly do enjoy them, and in my opinion that's what matters. Certainly that's all that should matter to you. Not whether I enjoy them.

Anyhow, I've been thinking about all this in these terms:

GOOD for MOO. Your ears work fine, buddy. Keep listening. Keep playing.
Keep writing. You're getting better and better at it.

And here's something else I've been thinking about. I've been feeling very sad for you because of your comment about having read only two books in your whole life. It's made me sad because you're missing out on some great literature. Have you ever thought about "books on tape"? Just a thought. Use it if it seems to make sense to you. Some great books out there, buddy. And unless I miss my guess, YOU understand SPOKEN language very well. Anyway...

Take care. All the best. Go ace some exams.

And don't worry about anyone [no names] who happens to be flaming me. I don't worry about it either.

Good luck, Jon. I mentioned this before, and I don't see any reason not to say it again. You certainly deserve it.

So we're actually TWO islands awash in a sea of wackiness.

Just kidding, strat. There are a few other islands out there as well.
But no continents!

They could have played "Feel Like Makin' Love" or even "All Right Now" and kicked so much that Kossoff wouldn't have wanted to come out of the dressing room. But of course they would never do that...

Music, as far as I understand it, is an art form. Therefore the appreciation of it is a matter of personal taste. I wouldn't go to see those bands if they were all on the same bill and the show was across the street from my house and the tickets cost a nickel. But as you were saying, that don't prove anything universal either.

The audience was there to see and hear them shred. And they got what they wanted. It's not what I want to see and hear. And you may think I'm wrong on this, but I believe I'm entitled to my own opinion. You are too, by the way...

The bands who appeal to me are mostly the ones who work together. They don't compete to see who gets the most applause, or who gets the most chicks, or who plays the most solos. They mostly seem to want to cooperate to make the best music they can.

For the record, I like some bands that don't have any guitars at all.
And I like some other bands that have guitars but no amps! Can you imagine?

Of course you don't need to hear this because you're a mighty accomplished shredder with tons of solos and piles of chicks, but I've been trying to tell the beginners here that they can make interesting and worthwhile music, and even have long and successful professional careers, even if they never shred a single scale in their whole lives.

They might not get as many chicks as the mighty Todd LaRoc, but then they might not want to ... Maybe they'll be happy with just one good one.

How fast I play is determined by how much coffee I drink.

I love playing fast but I don't like to listen to it.

I couldn't agree more. Some of my favorite players shred for about four bars every forty minutes. I don't hate shredding on principle, or anything. I just get tired of when that's all there is ...

Thanks for your comment, Russ. I think it added a good sense of perspective to this thread.

Well, Miles was known for taking a "bad" note and making it sound correct.

Bill Nelson/ Be-Bop Deluxe was AWESOME, saw them live a few times, and your right theres a man who can pack a few notes into a beat, and still have room for more.

Steve £
"You don't have to be Jewish to play the Blues"

Relax, Pt. Jon's in Britain, where they spell "spelled" as "spelt" and
"learned" and so on "learnt" ... no big deal, IMHO.

As for me, I played for a few years in an all-original power-pop/ska
"fusion" band where shredding was verboten. We used to have a little
"game" where the object was to play as many songs in a row as possible with NO guitar solos at all. Once or twice per set I would throw in a slow slippery solo on my steel guitar, or else a full-blast chord-solo on my electric. But that was IT. Everything else I did was strictly rhythm. I would make it as creative and as interesting as possible, but it was still part of the rhythm section and I was not looking for any spotlight at all. That was lots of fun, and we had our fans, but of course McLaughlin and Pastorius were not among them.

If this proves anything, it's this: it takes all kinds! Do what moves you. Hopefully it will move others as well. If you want to shred, go ahead. There are folks who will be happy to listen to you. But if you don't want to (or can't, yet), don't worry. There are plenty of folks out there like me who will be happy to listen to you, too.

At least I think this is what it proves ...

I am pleased to say that you are right about this one. And I was wrong.
But only on THIS ONE!

In fact "Tumeni Notes" is quite witty as well. And spelling words wrong deliberately is funny too, BUT ONLY if you do it once in a while. If you do it all the time it just gets to be a pain in the butt.

I thought I had remembered the name of the song correctly. But I didn't.
I was SO SURE of myself that I didn't bother to check Steve's website.
MY BAD. We all make mistakes sometimes. I understand that. I looked it up after you told me to. And I got my info from the DVD song-list.

By the way, the title listed on the DVD is "Tumeni Notes" and not
"tumeni notes". Yes, the capitalization is important. So we were both wrong. But I was more wrong than you were, both because I had the words spelled correctly when I should not have done so, and also because I attacked you when I didn't have my facts straight. So [real loud and clear now] MY BAD. But only on THIS ONE!

All the recent ones. Everything here that hasn't expired. That's how I figured out that you can type -- and that you could spell if you wanted to.

What I am saying is if you don't bother to spell the words correctly, and you don't bother to capitalize anything, and you don't bother with punctuation, you shouldn't be surprised if nobody wants to read what you write. Or if when they do try to read it, they have a lot of trouble understanding it.

And I'm saying that most of the time with these guys I don't get the message. I'm not a newcomer to music or to fast playing, and I am willing to concede that just because I don't get anything of value out of it, this doesn't mean anything about how valuable it is to YOU. They have their audience (which includes YOU but not ME) and when I talk about my own taste I'm talking about ME, not THEM.

A few months ago my wife and I went to see some friends, Mark and Jen.
After dinner, Mark pulled out a Joe Satriani DVD and said, "You gotta see this!" My wife said, "Who's Joe Satriani?" [She teaches classical ballet, and she knows jack squat about rock. But I love her to bits anyway.] And I said, "He's a VERY accomplished guitar player." So we all sat down and Mark started the DVD and when it was over he said, "Wow!
Perry, wasn't that great?" But I didn't answer him because I had been asleep for more than an hour.

Mark is a very bright guy. So am I, by the way. And I'm not saying you aren't. It really doesn't matter anyway. We just have different tastes, that's all. But MY point about all this is that for MY ears, if you want to keep ME awake, you have to be able to do more than play fast for two hours. And maybe Joe can do more than play fast, but his slow playing doesn't do anything for ME either. And that's why I can say I don't listen to him. But I would never deny that he's a very accomplished player.

I realize it very well. By the way, I've written some stuff that is too hard for me to play. And I play pretty well. Or at least I did when I was playing every day. And getting paid for it. [Before I got a "real job".] So I understand what it's like to try to pack a lot into a bar.
Or into a song. Or into a set. Or into a gig-bag.

I never said Steve Vai is crap. I never would say that. About anybody. I have a friend (no names, please) who has NO EARS and NO VOICE and NO
HANDS and NO SENSE OF RHYTHM, but he plays guitar and sings too, very enthusiastically and very loud, and it's always painful to listen to him do that. But I would never say he was crap. So how could I ever say the same thing about Steve Vai?

I admire a lot about Steve Vai, and I admire a lot (of completely different things) about my friend, even though he may be the worst
"musician" who ever drew a breath. But I don't listen to their music.
For different reasons, obviously.

I have read all your recent posts and I know that a few days ago you asked who plays the blues other than Clapton and BB King. I was the one who told you about Rory Gallagher, if you recall. I was trying to help you then and I am still trying to help you now. I also tried to turn you on to Robert Johnson (the white guy who is still alive). I was trying to help you then, too. Look for "Close Personal Friend". You'll love it.
Everybody loves it. Robert plays at least one fast solo in every song.
Sometimes two. But I wouldn't call him a shredder. He's an awesome hot rhythm player too. That's a tough job and a really important one, and it tends to get overlooked a lot more than it should. But it's not part of the topic here so I won't rattle on about it any further. But listen to him if you can find that record.

That is ONE of the things you have to do, yes ...

And while we're at it, I admire a lot of things about YOU. I like that you are willing to defend your position. I like that you listen to all kinds of music. I like that you are asking questions around here. And I could list a few other things too but what's the point? I'm not saying you're a bad guy, moo. I'm saying you could do a better job of writing.

Actually I did not do that at all. I criticized you for not taking the time to spell anything correctly, or to do anything else that would make your posts easier to read. And I made a mistake about the name of Steve
Morse's tune, for which mistake I have already apologized. I'm not trying to shred you, moo, but I was very much trying to get you involved in a discussion. I'm glad that it is happening. I hope we will both get a lot out of it.

No I wasn't. Actually I was mostly kidding. I was trying to encourage you to write better English, which I believe you could do if you wanted.

I don't think most of this is negative at all. You're expressing your opinions and I'm expressing mine, and that's healthy. It's positive, in my view.

Maybe you didn't understand that I was teasing you and that I meant it in fun. Even people who know me well cannot tell whether I am kidding or not. At least not all the time. So sometimes they take me seriously when they shouldn't. And sometimes they fail to take me seriously when they should. I was trying to help you to understand that if you took the time and put in the effort to write better English, it would be a lot easier for other people to take you seriously when you want them to do so.

But this is the kind of statement that is negative. My mind is open and so are my ears. I have no problem admitting it when I make a mistake.
And I also have no problem admitting that there are a lot of very fine musicians who do nothing for me.

Are you ready for this? I don't care for Stevie Ray Vaughn. So what?
I don't care for Carlos Santana. So what? I don't care for Joni
Mitchell. So what? All three are (or were) incredible talents, gifts to all of us from above, if you will, but I don't really enjoy listening to any of them. So what? By the way, I was REALLY sad when I found out about Stevie Ray's plane crash. Even though I don't like his music very much. I hate it when we lose a treasure. Even if it's not my favourite treasure.

Meanwhile, I don't like the Rolling Stones either. Or Mahavishnu
Orchestra. So what? I've got records here featuring Al DiMeola, John
McLaughlin, Allan Holdsworth, and lots of other guys who can play faster than you or I will ever be able to play. But I don't listen to them. So what? I bought those records on the advice of friends who thought I would love them. But I didn't. I tried to love them, moo. I really did.
But it didn't happen for me. So what? That doesn't make me stupid or even ugly. You probably don't like any of my favourite bands or players.
So what? That doesn't make you smart or handsome either.

Some of my favourite guitar players can play real fast too. But they play differently, somehow, than your favourite fast players. Part of the reason why I started this thread in the first place was because I wanted to find out: What's the difference? How come I love some of these guys so much, and yet I don't give a rat's ass about the others? Who else feels the same way? And can they explain it when I cannot? That's why we're talking about all this in the first place, moo. It has nothing to do with saying that anything or anyone is crap.

The more I think about it, the more I tend to think that it MAY NOT BE
POSSIBLE to explain it. "Writing about music is like dancing about architecture" -- David Byrne.

But still writing is the only way we have to communicate at the moment, so I will try again. Read my post about Bill Nelson and how he reminds me of Jimi Hendrix. Read it very carefully. What I said there is that they both care very deeply about the QUALITY of every note. Some other guys who do (or did) that are Duane Allman, Lowell George, David
Gilmour, David Lindley, Derek Trucks and the white Robert Johnson I was talking about earlier. [Now I'm not saying that anyone who isn't on my very short list doesn't do that; I'm just saying that these guys do it
VERY WELL.] Listen to these people, moo. Listen with headphones, loud, with no distractions. Spend hours and hours and hours listening to Jimi.
And maybe you will start to understand what I mean. I am sorry that I cannot find a way to explain it any better.

Now, when it comes to shredding, I think the thing that matters is: if all the notes are going by in a blur, it's really hard to do anything for the QUALITY of any of them. You just don't have time. Fret it and pick it and move on. That's all you can do. You can't wiggle it. You can't caress it. You just have to hammer it and keep going. This is not anything personal against any of these players. It's just a fact of physics. You can't be in two places at one time. If you're playing 20 notes a second, you cannot linger over any of them. And therefore, aside from the difference in pitch, they all start to sound the same. So: if you do that a little bit, I'm cool with it. But if you want to make your living doing it all the time, you'll have to get your money somewhere other than from my pocket, because I'd rather spend my time (and money)
on people who are more concerned with QUALITY than QUANTITY.

Sure it has. It's been a long thread. Still growing, too. I hope this has been good for both of us. And for those who have the patience to read us.

That wasn't the only thing you spelled wrong. For example, can you type the letters "Y-O-U" ? And if so, why don't you do it? And if not, how can you write such a long post in one day?

For example,

Most of the guys I listen to WRITE their songs.

I am willing to overlook the occasional typo and I know some people have trouble spelling long words so that's not the issue either. I type really fast and I spell really well but that's a gift I have and although I am thankful for it, I don't expect everyone else to be able to do the same thing. So that's not the issue. Not at all. But what do you mean when you say:

Is it that you have never noticed that the word is spelled YOU'RE? Or are you trying to be cute? Or are you trying to be difficult?

If you don't learn anything else from this long exchange of ideas, I would like you to consider the following:

Every time you save a second of your own time by not bothering to type a whole word, you are wasting many seconds of many other people's time because they have to sloe duwn und trie two figger out wot u meen.

Thanks for this, Pt. In my defense, Eddie's band didn't need to be told they sounded great. They all knew it anyway. But Eddie did need to be told that there was SOMEBODY there who noticed what he was doing. And thought it was [comment deleted] ... And I wouldn't have criticized without also giving lots of praise. Otherwise it would have been unfair.

By the way, the best musician I ever knew was mainly a sax player. He played a lot of instruments as well. Piano was about his fifth-best, but he could play lots of Beethoven and Oscar Peterson and much more. What a gifted guy. Like all really good musicians, he had NO ego problem. A total gentleman. Compared to him, I played like [comment deleted]. But he always told me he liked what I was up to. And I think he meant it. It wasn't his cup of tea, but he could appreciate the ideas I was developing. A great guy.

One night we got talking about all kinds of things including his jazz-in-the-bars gigs. And he told me that he had found a fail-safe way to get a lot of applause. Wanna know a secret?

"Tune it about half a semitone flat, and bite down way too hard on the reed."

It all depends on the audience. Those guys don't appeal to me at all.
But here I'm talking about ME, not THEM. If they appeal to you, then that's good. Listen to them all you like. No harm in that!

This is sort of what I was trying to say at first. Play me a melody, not a scale. I don't mind if you play it fast, but make it a song, not an etude. If I want to listen to etudes I'll go get my Chopin records out.
And if you want to hear the original shred-meister, listen to some
Paganini. [He would have been an awesome rock composer except that he was born a few centuries too early!]

I tend to disagree with you on the "pointlessly" bit. I don't think it makes sense to learn to do anything pointlessly. If you learn to play intelligently then that 4-second run is a lot more likely to be worth listening to [in my opinion].

Those crowds would have gone bananas if Eric leaned over and spat on the floor. No disrespect to you or to them, but they just loved him SO much!

Believe it or not, it's possible to make great music without any guitar solos. In fact, it's possible to make great music without any guitars at all. [But it took me a long, long time to realize this.]

I think my main point here is that, in my opinion, a solo (on any instrument) should contribute something to the song, not just showcase the player. Just my opinion, but you're welcome to share it if you wish!

And thanks for contributing to this discussion. I'm finding it really interesting...

I got the 100th message in this thread.

What's the record?
Is there one?
Are we even close yet?

Did I ever tell you about my problems with math?
I think one and one is three.
Because of this I find it easier to play a guitar since everything in in tritones.
Or is that twintones?
How 'bout Twin Peaks?
But that's why I can't shred well.
I play two notes when I see a triplet written.
But some times I play five.
Depending on my mood at the time.
The doctor said that I will be fine so long as I never count past two.

thread in front of the header.

I don't know why I'm getting my words in the wrong order all of a sudden.
Maybe I'm just burnt out.

I was listening to some old Allman brothers songs earlier and I found myself once again getting all sappy eyed from the guitar work. (Blue
Sky and Melissa to be specific.) I am assuming that would be Dicky
Betts but not sure. To me he is able to put his heart and soul into these songs and it affects me emotionally. I think a really good song is one that sends shivers through me. Sometimes it's an instrument, sometimes it's a voice. Margo Timmons (cowboy junkies) voice has this effect on me too .

But I never get this way with the scale shredder types like Satriani etc. It is great and amazing and I appreciate it, but it is also so very cold to me. Maybe it is the opposite for other people, i don't know.

Because he has no respect for the fools who drool all over the floor whenever he does it???

Just guessing.

Thanks, Nick.

By the way, are you familiar with Bill Nelson? My favorite guitar player ever ever ever. He reminds me of Jimi sometimes but not because he's trying to. More because he cares so much about the QUALITY of every note. And he can shred if he wants to. Usually he doesn't want to.

His long solos are all phrased like a great horn player would do it. A blast of notes, and some long slow notes, and all these little pauses.
As if his guitar was breathing. He played the best rock solos I ever heard. And they're all JAM PACKED with emotion and beauty.

Bill's first band was called "Be Bop Deluxe". A totally fitting name, although it took me a long time to realize it. If you haven't heard them, you should probably do so. You could start with "Axe Victim", their first one, or "Live! In The Air Age", their live release. Or if you prefer to go straight to the crown jewel first, that one's called
"Modern Music".

You can still get these, and the best place to do so is Bill's website.
www.billnelson.com/bebopdeluxe/main.htm

And NO, I do not get a commission. I'm only mentioning this because from the look of your post I think you might like it. You might even love it.

Meanwhile, thanks for your input. This is fun. I'm learning a lot.

20 going on 12.

This thread has become very interesting. At least it seems that way to me. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to it.

As all good discussions do, it has wandered a bit from its starting point. And from the idea I had in mind when I started it. Maybe my original post wasn't too clear on this. I've had that problem once or twice before

I called it "shredding scales" rather than simply "shredding" because it's not really the shredding that bothers me, it's the scales. I'd rather see you shred cabbage and carrots. At least then we could all eat cole slaw. Har de har har!

Can I tell you a story? Of course I can. I can tell you anything I want.
You can decide whether or not to listen.

I once worked in a record store. Eddie was the manager. He was a fine guitarist. Superb technique. All styles. He could play like anybody, except maybe Joe Pass and maybe Lenny Breau.

Eddie had sworn off gigging years earlier. But then he got talked into joining a band. A classic-rock copy band. Fabulous musicians. All four.
I went to see their first gig. They played everything you could ask of such a group. The place was packed. And the crowd loved it. Especially the guitar solos, all but one of which were diminished scales, shredded to smithereens.

The next day, in the store, he asked me what I thought. I could not lie to him. I respected him too much. So I said, "Eddie, some of it was fabulous. The rhythm section is fantastic. The singer is really good.
Your rhythm playing was exquisite. And your slide solo in 'Tie Your
Mother Down' was wonderful. But I have to ask you a question. How come all the other solos were diminished scales? I'm not saying you should have copied the originals note-for-note. But couldn't you at least play something melodic, something in the spirit of the song? What's a diminished scale doing in the middle of 'Little Wing'? You don't even have any respect for JIMI?"

And he said, "Did you see 'em? They loved it. They're drunk. They're obnoxious. They're ignorant. They know nothing. They deserve nothing."

I said, "I was there, too, Eddie. I came to see YOU. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't obnoxious. I'm not exactly ignorant. And I was so disappointed.
It was like you were trying to ruin every song. And the only time you couldn't do it was when you had a piece of glass on your finger."

Then he turned around and walked away. Went in the back room. Left me standing there at the cash register. We never talked about his band again, and I never went to see them again. The didn't last too long together, either. A couple more gigs, maybe three. And that was it.

What can we learn from all this? Choose one or more of the following.

A) They couldn't survive without my support.
Ed was a jerk.
C) Guitar players shred scales to show disrespect.

Well of course "A" is a joke. And I wouldn't argue with you if you said
"B". But keep "C" in mind too. The next time you go to a concert and the guitar player insists on shredding SCALES, ask yourself what he thinks of his audience. What he thinks of YOU ...

Just my two cents, as always. Someday maybe I'll throw in a nickel.

I'm glad I was right when I said you would love them, too.

Oh and I forgot to mention: Bill is an awesome poet. [In my book that's about three grades better than an awesome lyricist]