shredding scales

Many years ago, a friend said to me:

I got thinking about this a few weeks ago when Steve Winwood was on
Austin City Limits. His new band includes a very accomplished guitar player, who played several technically difficult solos, and the audience just sat there. But then Steve got out from behind his organ, picked up his Strat and played "Dear Mister Fantasy" with its slow and simple guitar solo, and everybody in the place stood up and shouted: "Hooray!"

What's the difference? Could it be the difference between "Look what I can do!" and "Listen! Every one of these notes means something!" ??

I may not be typical, or then again I may be, but I can tell you this much: You can shred all the scales you want to, but I won't be listening. I'll be somewhere else, where the guitar player thinks a solo should be more like a melody than a scale. The faster you play, the more
I tend to think: "Those notes must not mean anything, otherwise he would have let some of them ring."

So ... SHRED ON, if you must. But can you please do it someplace else?

I'm trying to listen to some MUSIC here!!

Miles once said "You can't play a wrong note in music".

i'll agree with u a shred-fest solo doesnt capture the audiance and innovate the mind (cept if its done really really really well, ala zakk wylde and kirk hammet).

However, in the defense of 'shredding' ever listened to good blues solos or solos in general? often there's a good load of slow melody etc in the solo with occasion floreshes and climaxes (played fast!)
that sound obsoluting grand-spanking great. That sorta thing doesnt come easily and the only way to do that is learn how to shred pointlessly so when i comes to that moment that 4 second run is perfect. Listen to clapton, specially his live stuff and tell me the crowd dont go banannas after he does a fast florish during a song. As said before tho, its gotta be done properly. Many players as u said do overdo it, and thats probably why they'll never be in the league of clapton etc.

Whatever tho, long live the solo! its a sad day when bands miss is out! (general jab at nu-metal+punk)

Send me a couple of those valium's.

Here's mine..

A good friend, and excellent musician, has been working on putting a 5 piece band with a chick singer together for many months.
They did their first gig a few weeks ago and I drove over 100 miles one way to see him/them.
It was a nice bar in the Chicago area.
The crowd ranged from 21 to 60's and there was standing room only.
They brought in a lot of $$ for the bar.
Their lead guitarist is a shredder who uses too many effects.
The drummer was way off most of the time.
The bass player was good (when I could hear him) but was too laid back.
The chick singer screamed in to the mic and was not only too loud but off key.
My friend played rhythm and some leads flawlessly.
They had PA problems.
The wireless mic quit working.
The bass player blew somehing in his amp.
When the gig ended he asked me what I thought.
I told him (and the rest of the band) that they sounded great.
They need that.
Telling them of all their mistakes and misfortunes will not only destroy a friendship, but it is causing harm to those who worked so hard to put the show on.
Honesty is a great thing but sometimes you have to stant on your tongue.

I'm starting to think that everything Moo writes epitmoizes the shredder mentality. Often no capital letters. Often no punctuation. Lots of words spelled wrong. Most of the time it seems to be deliberate. And yet it looks like Moo can type. So what's he doing?

As I understand it, writing and music are both SUPPOSED to be forms of communication. Shredding and deliberately poor writing both strike me as ways of saying "I don't care if they understand it. I don't care if they have to work really hard to get it. I don't even care if they have to work really hard, and then NOT get it."

Maybe I just need to learn how to set up a killfile

Right!
Like Steve Morse would ever call a song "tumeni notes" !

Steve Morse is a great communicator. He can say more with his guitar than some guys can with their keyboards. [I won't mention any names.]

His titles are witty and meaningful too. And that's not easy when you're writing instrumental music. [I get so sick of titles like "Fred's
Boogie" and "Tommy's Blues".]

By the way, the name of the piece is "Too Many Notes" ... which is also witty and meaningful at the same time.

In my opinion, if you deliberately mangle the name of the song, you're showing disrespect for the composer AND for the people who you THINK are reading your stuff.

A while ago I made up my mind not to rip anybody but Todd, who is clearly asking for it.

butt moo ure askin fer it two dud

Now, about that killfile ... anybody know how to do it?

First of all 2 things

1. Get ure facts right - steve morse did right a song called tumeni notes, if ya dont belive me look on steve morse's official website, http://www.stevemorse.com/ ,cant give u a bigger link cos its one of the wierd sites that hide stuff. But look under discs, steve morse solo, album high tension wires. - so frankly u are really talkin out ure arse big time

What was it u said? -

In my opinion, if you deliberately mangle the name of the song, you're showing disrespect for the composer AND for the people who you THINK are reading your stuff.

-> u just mangled his song name!

- also, u obviously mustnt be the brightest penny in the pond, i said at the top of my previous post i got this from total guitar, one of the most reputable and best selling guitar magazines, so i dont think there gonna get that wrong!!

2. I posted that response because I thought it would be of generaly intrest to someone, as I said it was 'Total Guitars' top ten shredders they have measured, nothing to do with me. I think 20.8 notes a second is pretty amazing, that is certainly an achievement. I dont care if the crowd gets it, i dont care it conveys meaning, I would just like to hear 20.8 descent notes a second being played becuase I think thats pretty impressive. The reason why I'd thought it be of intrest is cos the post i replied to, was telling somebody to check of ynwgie for shredding, so i thought the person that was directed to might of found the list intresting. i certainly did.

Have u actually read any of my other posts???

Also say what?! - about the
"number" of notes played rather than whether they were the "right" ones, or whether they moved anyone musically.

ARGH, Steve Vai is one of the most highly acclaimed guitarist of the
80's and 90's u idiot! He is huge!!! He is frankly the dogs bollocks at guitar!! he started as a transciber of Frank Zappa's work, so he is pretty much the best guiterist at hitting the RIGHT notes!!! and since he can do it at 20.8 notes a second is even more dam impressive!!!

Also alot of these songs arnt shredding from top to bottom, they contain alot of melody and climax with fast bits etc. Thats exactly what classical music does quite often!! Listen to a descent non-moodly piano concerto or an orchestral piece. U need to open ure ears!!

As i have said in a previous post

"i'll agree with u a shred-fest solo doesnt capture the audiance and innovate the mind (cept if its done really really really well"
+
"As said before tho, its gotta be done properly. Many players as u said do overdo it"

perry what are u saying here?

"Shredding and deliberately poor writing both strike me as ways of saying "I don't care if they understand it"

Me thinks, Steve Vai, Joe Satch, Kirk Hammet, Yngwie (who all are amazing, cos of classical training) are absolutly amazing at conveying a message. Their songs are great. And that is why the are held as some of the best guitarist by all major magazines and by most people!
Steve vai's touching tongues song is amazing the way he uses the octaver to describe the electricity i though was absolutley amazing + clever.

I'm not sayin Steve morse, SRV, clapton arnt as good, in fact they're just as good cos they are amazing as well!

To say a descent shredder, e.g. vai, is crap shows how stupid that person is. Even if u dont like it, u should still realise the amount of technical precision and thought that goes into a writing a song like that.

I'm agreeing with people, a person who just shreds pointlessly is crap (as my other post says), but theres a difference when its done properly.

Frankly u know f all about me. If ya read any of my posts u'll find out i'm much into my music theory. I listen folk music, rock, blues, heavy metal, classical music, electronica, acoustic, I even own
Arizona smoke review - best of blugrass banjo cd. I like to think I listen to a wide vocabulary of music, because thats the only way to develop to become a well rounded musician.

I thought this group is about helping beginers and other guitarists, why critasise me for putting a post up of a guiar magazines top ten shredders becuase I'd thought it be of intrest and help to somebody?

Sorry, ure just being small minded.

And i'm sorry for writing such a negative response on a channel that should be all about helping people.

Open ure mind and ears up and then there maybe hope for u.

Dam, its been another long post! - Jon.

Also, yes i did realise i spelt hear wrong in my last post, I just could be bothered putting a second post saying "oops hear, sorry" cos its annoys people and I thought even an 8 year old kid would be mature enough to realise it was just a small mistake and read past it, obviously i was wrong.

I've never been in a chat room in my life, in fact these posts I have

Dont know why I mix up words when i right, normally i get most of them by rereading, but on the occasional post i've had to be quick, becuase i have not got a lot of spare time at all the mo.

Yes, well said but it should be for the sole purpose of your own enjoyment,
I not once mentioned that we should be forced to listen to the same old music. Experimenting in music leads to it's evolution and like all discoveries, sometimes it sucks and sometimes it takes us to the next level, I honestly believe that we will neve run out of music and as long as we live, we should strive to improve music or whatever else we do that pleases us.I am glad that you love your music but remember that all great things are acomplished in the serenity of our own thoughts, if being with the in crowd and getting more girls is what you love about great music than that is your way of enjoying it. Todays music, yeah I think Jazz is happening, well at least where I am but I must confess there a no new bands that particularly interest me in this era, I am sure that the world is full of talented musicians but sadly the music industry feels that music should be sexy and simple so we are constantly being evicted by tarts like Brittney Spears and not to mention Enrique,
Ricky Martin and so on and so on.
My music instructor once told me that the public perhaps not always understands a good piece of music but nevertheless has the abillity to recognize it as one, I think he was right but I also think that dance clubs would not thrive on kick ass guitar solos and flamenco diablo , maybe if you throw in a turntable or two heh.

RightO , keep on posting and keep well, arrivederci.

I'm starting to think that everything Moo writes epitmoizes the shredder mentality. Often no capital letters. Often no punctuation. Lots of words spelled wrong. Most of the time it seems to be deliberate. And yet it looks like Moo can type. So what's he doing?

As I understand it, writing and music are both SUPPOSED to be forms of communication. Shredding and deliberately poor writing both strike me as ways of saying "I don't care if they understand it. I don't care if they have to work really hard to get it. I don't even care if they have to work really hard, and then NOT get it."

Maybe I just need to learn how to set up a killfile

Right!
Like Steve Morse would ever call a song "tumeni notes" !

Steve Morse is a great communicator. He can say more with his guitar than some guys can with their keyboards. [I won't mention any names.]

His titles are witty and meaningful too. And that's not easy when you're writing instrumental music. [I get so sick of titles like "Fred's
Boogie" and "Tommy's Blues".]

By the way, the name of the piece is "Too Many Notes" ... which is also witty and meaningful at the same time.

In my opinion, if you deliberately mangle the name of the song, you're showing disrespect for the composer AND for the people who you THINK are reading your stuff.

A while ago I made up my mind not to rip anybody but Todd, who is clearly asking for it.

butt moo ure askin fer it two dud

Now, about that killfile ... anybody know how to do it?

That's why I'm a musician. I only have to know my alphabet from A to G, and only need to count to 12...

<snip>

"Shredding" is a term that has come to mean playing incredibly fast. So fast, in fact that the average human simply cannot make sense of it and it can often become annoying rather than pleasing to listen to. There are many
"shredders" and most of them found their spotlight in the 80's. Yngwie
Malmsteen is probably the most notorious IMHO. He's the one I'd check out if you want to hear some serious "shredding.

I was about to say the very same thing.

Do you know the Dixie Dregs album "What If"?

I love the closing sequence:

Little Kids : baroque (presto vivace)
Gina Lola Breakdown : kickass bluegrass
Night Meets Light : slow, spacey and very sweet

It's the change-of-style and the change-of-pace that makes the fast stuff stand out. Shredding is kind of like swearing or shouting. Or sex or chocolate. It's much more effective if it isn't happening all the time.

20.8 notes per second is supposed to make me piss my pants? Get outta here! I can do twice that in my sleep ... just strumming on a 12-string

Don't they learnt how to spelt in the UK?

I jammed with a Brit not long ago.
He played great only I don't have a clue what he was saying.

Which brings me to....

I was starting a new band a few months ago.
I had bass, drums and a guitar player but I needed a singer.
I found a guy in the musicians classifieds and he came to a rehearsal.
I asked if he could sing the 3 songs that I told him that we would play for his tryout and he nodded yes.
The conversation went on for a while but they guy never spoke (or is that spake) a word.

So we started playing the first song and he started singing.
After a minute or two I had to stop playing because I was laughing so hard.
I really tried to hold it back but I just couldn't do it.
Remember Latka from Taxi?
This guy sounded just like him, accent and all.
I later found out that he just came over here from Bulgaria.
I didn't mean to insult him but sometimes you just can't help it.
Needless to say we got another singer.

Not to open the whole shredding argument/debate again but have a listen to

Zakk Wylde's song Speedball

Its a track he wrote playin in Back label society track and its frankly it is a shred fest on an acoustic, but it is an example where its done with alot of feeling and an expanded mind and in a classical sort of way.

Its a really good track, its quite short (about 1 min) so it wouldnt take long to download.

Most audiences are not musicians.
They don't care if someone can shred or not.
They simply like music that they can dance to, tap their foot to or sing along with.
But there are exceptions and most of them are under 18 years old.

No, sorry, Lon!
It was I who ate that stuff. MrStrat had nothing to do with it.

And I mangled the name but I didn't do it deliberately, not that THAT matters...

Maybe it was I who was too forceful. It gets kind of confusing when you're reading a conversation. I meant to be too forceful because I wanted to start a discussion, which is certainly what happened...

Perhaps the key words in my sentence quoted above are "STRIKE ME". I'm not saying "This is what it is!" I'm saying "This is how it seems to me!" And there's a big difference. I wrote a much longer response to moo myself in which I tried to explain what I meant by that, and I hope it helps to clarify things.

All the other items in moo's post that relate to what I said are dealt with in another post. Cheers, fellas.

Is no problem , I knew all along that you are an okay person, but I just cant help to tell what I feel should mean something , competition is not bad if the competitors do it to amuse themselves and just to learn from each other, but the other form of territorial competition is the one that usually destroys.

I am sure I would love to be able to play in front of 50.000 people but wouldn't first mind having a few lessons from the greats

Peace and keep on jamming

Sure, it is a great skill that they have, I don't disagree especially when hearing Malmsteen playing clasicall pieces, surely he didn't think " hmm I am so bored today maybe I will try play something crazy like Beethoven while my mates are busy getting laid.
I believe that it is a way for them to show off a bit but I also believe that they deeply love and are dedicated to their music, listen to Ritchie
Sambora when he plays in Bon Jovi and then on his solo album , you will know what I mean.

Led Zeppelin did a Whole Lotta music which I personally don't like but whenever I hear Stairway To Heaven the light of their musical soul strikes me like a knife.

Yeah well, not my cup of tea but I think they also hit the "odd" notes when nobody is watching and lay back with the Dead Poets society, definitely talented.

As for the last few comments I completely disagree, playing is not about competition and getting more girls although MTV , BMG , Zee Zee V and SI SI
SI ..whatever... surely make it seem like that it is only about those things.
Bottom line is that you can enjoy music and appreciate it and also not enjoy it and appreciate it, most people don't like clasicall but yet hardly anyone ( except this jerk who once posted that Fred Durst kicks Beethoven's ass )
will reject it for it's ritch musical content, an example ; you win the loterry and decide to buy a car, you can afford that BMW now and know how
German cars are made with quality but would rather buy yourself a brand new
Buick because it reminds you of your first girlfriend,

Two of my all-time favorite songs. Both are from "Eat A Peach" and you have to remember that Duane Allman was alive then (thus there were really "brothers" involved). As I understand it, "Melissa" is a duet between Duane and Dicky, and they swap solos in "Blue Sky". A wonderful record and a great illustration of what I was talking about. Thanks for reminding me of them.

As for me, I think the shredders are amazing but I don't think their music is great and I don't appreciate it. I don't mind people playing fast but I'd like to hear them play slow sometimes, too. Otherwise they tend to make me fall asleep.

I wasn't meaning to start a debate between us and the shredder-lovers.
There's no point in that really. Each to his own and so on. But I want the beginners here to remember that they can still become wonderful players even if they never learn to play as fast as some of the other guys. This is not Formula One here.

Sorry, ignore that last post, I assumed I spelt something wrong (I quite often do!) but,

Spelt is fine word!

I had made up my mind not to add any more to this thread but now I can see that this was the wrong decision.

I (and probably many others) thought that you were deliberately trying to mangle the language -- whether through laziness or arrogance or a desire to be different or whatever, we couldn't tell.

If you're doing the best you can, now that's a whole different story. I sincerely regret jumping on you so forcefully about your use of the language. I do see that you are writing much more intelligible stuff since we had that little conversation, and for this I and others will be very grateful. But I apologize for having said things which must have hurt your feelings. I never want to do that. Not to you. Not to anybody.

I was thinking "He doesn't understand me no matter how hard I try to say things clearly, therefore the only possible explanation is that he doesn't WANT to understand me." And clearly that was completely wrong. I didn't have any idea that you were trying so hard and having so much trouble. So again I apologize.

Keep trying hard, moo. We'll try harder too. Or at least I will.

Practice your guitar. Play with others. Listen to all kinds of music.
And all the other things we say to the beginners who want our help and advice.

And I mean this [in fact I mean it every time I say it to anybody]:

Best wishes to you.

Perry D.

feeling pretty sheepish now in the great white barren wasteland

This thread has become very interesting. At least it seems that way to me. Thanks to everyone who has contributed to it.

As all good discussions do, it has wandered a bit from its starting point. And from the idea I had in mind when I started it. Maybe my original post wasn't too clear on this. I've had that problem once or twice before

I called it "shredding scales" rather than simply "shredding" because it's not really the shredding that bothers me, it's the scales. I'd rather see you shred cabbage and carrots. At least then we could all eat cole slaw. Har de har har!

Can I tell you a story? Of course I can. I can tell you anything I want.
You can decide whether or not to listen.

I once worked in a record store. Eddie was the manager. He was a fine guitarist. Superb technique. All styles. He could play like anybody, except maybe Joe Pass and maybe Lenny Breau.

Eddie had sworn off gigging years earlier. But then he got talked into joining a band. A classic-rock copy band. Fabulous musicians. All four.
I went to see their first gig. They played everything you could ask of such a group. The place was packed. And the crowd loved it. Especially the guitar solos, all but one of which were diminished scales, shredded to smithereens.

The next day, in the store, he asked me what I thought. I could not lie to him. I respected him too much. So I said, "Eddie, some of it was fabulous. The rhythm section is fantastic. The singer is really good.
Your rhythm playing was exquisite. And your slide solo in 'Tie Your
Mother Down' was wonderful. But I have to ask you a question. How come all the other solos were diminished scales? I'm not saying you should have copied the originals note-for-note. But couldn't you at least play something melodic, something in the spirit of the song? What's a diminished scale doing in the middle of 'Little Wing'? You don't even have any respect for JIMI?"

And he said, "Did you see 'em? They loved it. They're drunk. They're obnoxious. They're ignorant. They know nothing. They deserve nothing."

I said, "I was there, too, Eddie. I came to see YOU. I wasn't drunk. I wasn't obnoxious. I'm not exactly ignorant. And I was so disappointed.
It was like you were trying to ruin every song. And the only time you couldn't do it was when you had a piece of glass on your finger."

Then he turned around and walked away. Went in the back room. Left me standing there at the cash register. We never talked about his band again, and I never went to see them again. They didn't last too long together, either. A couple more gigs, maybe three. And that was it.

What can we learn from all this? Choose one or more of the following.

A) They couldn't survive without my support.
Ed was a jerk.
C) Guitar players shred scales to show disrespect.

Well of course "A" is a joke. And I wouldn't argue with you if you said
"B". But keep "C" in mind too. The next time you go to a concert and the guitar player insists on shredding SCALES, ask yourself what he thinks of his audience. What he thinks of YOU ...

Just my two cents, as always. Someday maybe I'll throw in a nickel.

Thanks for this, Pt.

I still think you're wonderful.

Did you know....
Taht Yuo Can Raed A Mesagge Thta is speled totlaly worng so logn as the frist lettre is rgiht?

All got our crosses to bear, fella. Read this joke to cheer you up.

2 Dyslexic men went skiing on a mountain top. One says to the other, "I'm going to zag zig down that hill". His mate replies, "Sorry mate, I'm sure it's zig zag, not zag zig". He decides to go and ask a man stood nearby which one it is. "Excuse me mate, we want to ski down that hill over there but we can't decide if it's zig zag or zag zig. Which one is it?"
The bloke says "Sorry, I've got no idea. I'm not a skier, I'm a tobogganist."
"Oh, can I have 20 Marlboro, please?"

And they don't get any better

In my view, competing to see who can accomplish something musically is a very different thing than competing to see who can bang the most babes!
In the bands I like best, the members share the spotlight, and they share the applause, too. They do what they can to make the whole band better, not to make themselves stand out above the others. And there's nothing mind-numbing about them at all ... Personally I've enjoyed playing with people who were willing to say, "That's not bad, but I think you can do better." They're not putting me down, they're encouraging me to strive for the next level. It's not that they want to be better than me, it's that they want me to be better than I already am. Each of us competes with his or her own limitations. And I think that's very healthy. An awful lot healthier than competing to see who can spread their diseases the fastest!

But as I've been saying all along, this is my opinion, and I'm enjoying learning about yours ... even if I happen to disagree!

Since I am playing full time bass at this time the most important note for me (other than silence) is the root.
But this holds true for most blues guitar solos too.

You mean, it's not in E minor? Damn, I have to go back and check my theory books...

Do you know this one: